Personally I think it'll be a bit of a misunderstanding between them but the major thing to break them apart will probably be the mere act if misunderstanding (i.e. the suggestion that one doesn't trust the other or something).
elysia27
· 3 months ago
Geishas are entertainers, not whores. The only person geishas usually sleep with is their patron, the person who sponsors them. Slight terminology difference.
liari
· 3 months ago
*snorts* So his friends really did buy him a woman for his birthday...wow.
charles81
· 3 months ago
WOW! We know someone else's name!
Oh and it's a great page *lol*. GEISHA! Happy Birthday indeed ;)
Hmmm. His hands are still tied and he's shut in there with her. Doesn't look like Elanor is going to sleep anytime soon but I wouldn't put it past her to steal a moment in the ladies just to check up on Takashi or ask him what he thinks of something. Not sure if he's seen enough to convince him that she's cheating on him or anything silly but who knows, maybe he'll steal another nap in the Geisha's presence himself to find out whats going on. If Elanor does go to sleep I guess she'd feel the ropes still around his hands unless they're removed.
Just gotta add that I LOVE the thought in the 2nd panel of tucking Captain America's tie into his shirt. Not many people would have thought of that (i.e. tucked in so it wasn't flapping around as they drove).
That tie detail is pretty fabulous! The fact that neither of the knows whats going on with the other is making me nervous!
Soma
· 3 months ago
I really doubt this bit with the geisha or whatever will be anything more than tea, talking, and her performing some dances. Pretty amusing though. I feel bad that Elanor is out being dragged around on her birthday, and doesn't seem to have many friends, unlike Takashi here. Some friends he has, hehe.
Dani
· 3 months ago
Chances are she's not really a geisha. Though prostitutes in Japan often dressed like them, a geisha was a pretty high-profile kind of deal, and often even then, often only for their company. They did not just 'put out' for anyone who paid. They were more artists/social status symbols for business men then prostitutes; often those exclusive rights were to their 'danna', who basically supported them to have them as a mistress. But I could be wrong! Perhaps Takashi and his friends come from richer families, or closer to the war, times were more desperate for geisha.
Amanda
· 3 months ago
Geisha aren't prostitutes :) If he was 'bought a geisha' it would be for entertainment. Still a great birthday! As always, love the story and the art.
Lili
· 3 months ago
Haha, I don't think it's a geisha. Sounds more like his friends paid for a prostitute to entertain him for a while ;)
tapster
· 3 months ago
I have to say, this is the most amusing page of all. I couldn't stop laughing. I was really scared something was going to happen to Takashi, like he was going to get beat up or something, but this! This is absolutely fantastic. I love the detailing on the second to last panel. Thanks for the page!
Alex V.
· 3 months ago
and here i thought someone was gonna die or something...whew!
Android 21 3/7
· 3 months ago
My money is on yakuza aneki! What the yakuza would want with him, however, I have no clue.
Sindari
· 3 months ago
I've got my money on suprise birthday party in the bar. But thats the non-conspiracy theory part of my brain.
AnnoyingKitty
· 3 months ago
It's probably a prostitute and guys, there is a difference. :c
Prostitutes are the girls who are sold into slavery who are uglier than the geishas pretty much. They wear their belts (obi) tied in the front so it's easier to take off rather than reaching in the back and messing with all the knots.
Prostitutes are cheaper, obviously. Geishas are more for entertainment (serving sake, talking, serving more sake, drinking games, playing music and performing dances, yaddah yaddah).
Prostitutes do their job and you leave.
Alise
· 3 months ago
Oh no... I can see this going badly... Like... I don't think he'll do it, but Eleanor will definitely go to bed at an incredibly awkward time >< We're totally in panic mode right now with this comic. Oh dear.
sabriel
· 3 months ago
Interesting. I think we've been subject to some misdirection, and we're about to encounter a switcheroo.
It looked like Elanor was relatively safe, but Takashi was in serious danger. It turns out Tahaski has just been pranked.
... but Elanor? Is she safe? First this guy lies to her to get her attention, and then he takes her to a bar that turns out to be closed. She doesn't know him. Apparently the military wants some information from her about her father. If I were in her shoes, I would be very nervous.
But hey, maybe this will just be a cute soap-opera sequence of sexual hi-jinks and innocent misunderstandings.
Name
· 3 months ago
O.O First I go to Sarah's other comic, freak out over the drop ending, now this! T_T So much for sleeping tonight, or indeed, this week. Beautiful tie detail btw. Just love it.
Anon
· 3 months ago
His friends are utterly insane. If any of mine did that to me, They'd find themselves repayed twice-fold on /their/ birthdays XD Awesome page, as always!
Bobby Crosby
· 3 months ago
"Geisha wre not prsotitutes."
Some of them obviously were. The myth that all of them were prostitutes is just as dumb as the myth that all of them weren't.
abthomas
· 3 months ago
OH SNAP!!!
They bought him a night with a lady.
Oh. Snap.
abthomas
· 3 months ago
It's true. The most high quality Geisha's had their own private customers, sometimes only one who fully supported them. The lower quality they were, the more customers they had to pay for themselves.
"There remains some confusion, even within Japan, about the nature of the geisha profession."
All up it appears that a "true" Geisha is thought of as a girl of entertainment only, who does not engage in paid sex with clients. However this is the idealised view of them and it appears that although there were many fake Geishas who engaged in regular prostitution under the name of Geisha, many "true" Geisha were also pressured into it along with their normal services.
"Geisha have been confused with the Edo period's high-class courtesans known as oiran, from whom they evolved. Like geisha, oiran wore elaborate hairstyles and white makeup, but oiran knotted their obi in the front."
It'll be interesting to see how she wears the Obi as it could be a good indication as to exactly what this particular woman is (or at least, what she portrays herself as). Then again, this is long after the Edo period. "The last recorded oiran was in 1761"
The fact that we don´t see the soldiers eyes in the second frame seems deliberate... I sense something baad about to happen. Great work.
Gaylegee
· 3 months ago
HAHAH! Yes! They took him to a geisha! Awesome
Toriw
· 3 months ago
maybe she gets a supprise party too
mambomiranda
· 3 months ago
we can only hope ;)
Janice
· 3 months ago
NO WHAT. D: I am not relieved that his kidnappers didn't have more malicious intent. My romantic inclinations are not happy.
rodmb
· 3 months ago
I'm personally wondering why nobody's asked what was said in the untranslated Japanese. Doesn't that strike anyone else as odd?
Bobby Crosby
· 3 months ago
rodmb: Re-read the whole comic.
rodmb
· 3 months ago
Thank you very much Bobby, my Japanese knowledge is nonexistent, so I didn't connect it with the phrase earlier in the comic. Way to tie that in though, I love the way you do that in your comics.
Keep it up, Dreamless has had me hooked from the first posting!
Bobby Crosby
· 3 months ago
Thanks. And yeah, it's designed to be read in one sitting.
Elle
· 3 months ago
Ah HAH! I KNEW IT!
Felix Hellsings
· 3 months ago
Hehehe, that is funny! Happy Birthday!
stanni
· 3 months ago
Weird that his friends said "keep him alive" last update, all to keep him in tension and making him believe he was being kidnapped?
Salem5
· 3 months ago
Happy Birthday? Wow, I can speak japanese now^^
Konoko
· 3 months ago
"They're not closed." <- Well THAT does sound like a surprise birthday party. I just wonder if her father will be attending. (:
Anonee
· 3 months ago
HAH! Called it. =^_^=
hoogabooga
· 3 months ago
This comic is the best I've read, except the RSS feed doesn't really work. :(
Anonee
· 3 months ago
Spooty, I didn't mean to leave it at just that comment, my phone's stupid that way. Anyhow, Great page, as soon as i read the line "Otanjou-bi" I busted out laughing at my office, specially after the geisha silhouette in the fourth panel. Ms. Ellerton never ceases to amaze me with her artwork and, as always, Crosby's writing is genius!
A.L.
· 3 months ago
Nice to see that his friends have his "best interests" at mind.And they were kind enough to leave his hands bound so the geisha can have her way with him.Also I still don't like that prick who's talking to Eleanor like an idiot.I hope her day rearranges his face.
JekalMan
· 3 months ago
I'll be really disappointed if this is leading up to some sort of embarrassing misunderstanding. That's been done too many times.
And by the by, which birthday is this? 18?
ohwilleke
· 3 months ago
Konoko, I like the way you think. Levity before the storm might be nice.
Kyn
· 3 months ago
On the other hand, I hope soldier boy isn't going to do anything terrible to our heroine! Well, since sex is the topic of the conversation, after all, I can't help but be concerned!
Name
· 3 months ago
2nd to last panel: LOL Total failure.
Lou
· 3 months ago
Oh no...I know what's going to happen. *worried face* And what's goin' on with Elanor and that soldier guy? Can't wait for the next update!
jaded
· 3 months ago
bwahaha saw this coming nice arters
elysia27
· 3 months ago
Geisha are not the same thing as whores.
Geisha were high class entertainers; they acted like hostesses at parties and escorts for dates and whatnot.
They didn't book him a geisha, they booked him a whore.
mikomi
· 3 months ago
if they bought her to do what I think, then shes not a geisha, shes just a hooker, real geisha don't have sex with cliants
BobbyJ
· 3 months ago
awkward........
Philip Horger
· 3 months ago
Wow, awkward. I wonder what he's gonna tell her.
arasam22
· 3 months ago
okay wait.. i'm confused. is that elanor in the top panel, or is that what she's seeing? i've kind of been wondering for a couple pages now :P
pylgrim
· 3 months ago
Uh-oh. Judging by the parallel contruction of this moment, as Takashi is being forced into his "first time", it seems probable that Elanor will face a similar situation at the hands of that soldier guy. Hope both of them escape in one piece!
elle2
· 3 months ago
Gah! lol does anyone get that her father also threw a surprise party for her? or is it just me lol and the whole Geisha thing, who knows probably just for a night of company but yeah they are BOTH getting a birthday jees
Heather
· 3 months ago
No! This is going to turn out to be a very bad misunderstanding, I know it!
nora_crane
· 3 months ago
I'm smelling surprise birthday parties... =~=
batgirl
· 3 months ago
oh gee. I wonder what guys get other guys on their birthday? hmmmmmmm I'm gonna have to think about this one. :P
LVA
· 3 months ago
I'm going to be really peeved if this comic falls apart with the geisha-as-hooker bit. Can't blame post-war prostitutes for trying to cash in on an image, but I can blame people who don't do their homework. ;-)
I'm enjoying this series though I didn't think I would as much. Thanks!
Bobby Crosby
· 3 months ago
"Can't blame post-war prostitutes for trying to cash in on an image, but I can blame people who don't do their homework. ;-)"
Not sure if that wink means you're making a strange joke or what, but if you're serious, you're the one who didn't do your homework.
And that link was posted just two comments before yours by someone else as well. And obviously some "true" geisha were prostitutes as well. Just because someone's not supposed to do something, that doesn't mean they never do it. Are priests supposed to molest children? It would be a pretty boring story if it only featured the most normal people in the world. People hear certain things and they take them too far in their minds and they want to feel superior to others, so they call people out on errors that aren't errors. Many of you have heard that it was a myth that geisha were prostitutes and you somehow get that in your head that that means 100% of them weren't. Also, even if 100% of them weren't (obviously nowhere near the case), that STILL wouldn't stop it from being a valid thing to put in the story. It's a fictional story about people who see each other's lives in real time as they sleep. Has that ever happened before? Has a human ever done that before? And don't ignore the obvious fact that lots of geisha were prostitutes and instead make an argument about how you should only have one big crazy thing (the "dreamless" aspect) in a story that people need to suspend disbelief for and how everything else should be as real as possible to help the believability of the one crazy thing. I know that, and I also know that it's perfectly real to have a prostitute geisha.
yman
· 3 months ago
Love Mamoru's smile!
Teya
· 3 months ago
Beautiful page and dialogue, as always. I'm feeling more and more nervous for Eleanor, and definitely amused and slightly horrified for Mamoru. Can't wait to see what happens next! =]
Rakeal
· 3 months ago
ohmygah....
Name
· 3 months ago
To back up the comment on the Geisha thing - Geisha almost never, if ever at all, actually had sex with their customers. They were highly trained social entertainers. "Memoirs of a Geisha" have confused many people! I believe the correct term might be "maiko" or "geiko", I'm not sure.
charles81
· 3 months ago
I think Geiko is just another term for Geisha (actually I think it's the original term for them, meaning "arts daughter")
A Maiko is just an apprentice Geisha (although not all Geisha go through that apprenticeship stage).
You're right. "Memoirs of a Geisha" is a fictional story and shouldn't really be used as a real reference to the profession... Much like Dremless is a work of fiction ;)
But seriously it's almost certain that this is an Onsen Geisha. The description of them in the pre-WWII period fits perfectly with whats happening in Dreamless. Particularly the part where they've driven out of town quite a way to take Takashi to her.
Mike
· 3 months ago
Wow just got here from reddit and read the whole thing. I wish there were more... I'm hooked!
Keito
· 3 months ago
I suspect Bobby is correct in saying that there were surely at least some geisha, or at any rate women who operated under that title, who had sex with their clients. But that doesn't mean that if you say "geisha" to someone in Japan, they'll immediately think of a prostitute, given the "official" status of these women in society as entertainers. Mamoru and Pals probably wouldn't say "We hired you a geisha!" unless the stereotype of "geisha-as-prostitutes" was sufficiently widespread at that time and place; more likely they'd go with the Japanese word for "prostitute."
At any rate, perhaps we should save the geisha argument for when someone in the story actually says the word "Geisha." :P Until then, she's just a woman that his friends have paid to "entertain" Takashi for the evening--in what ways remains to be seen.
Me, I'm more worried about Eleanor; hope it's a birthday bash and not something sinister...
Name
· 3 months ago
What's that in the third panel someone is putting under the mask?
K
· 3 months ago
Can't see if the bow is on the front or on the back, that'd define her role as an entertainer. I have a feeling there's gonna be a dent in Takashi's and Eleanor's relationship. Maybe that's in the end what forces Eleanor to sleep most of the day, to block Takashi out? o:
Well, probably not. But I have a feeling this isn't going to go down well.
Soma
· 3 months ago
Man, I am getting such a kick from the fact that everyone is arguing over wether Geishas were prostitutes or not.
Name
· 3 months ago
Why did Mamoru and company say happy birthday in formal Japanese? A oung man wouldn't say "gozaimasu" to a close friend without meaning to mock him, though I suppose that's possible.
Bobby Crosby
· 3 months ago
Of course it was to mock him. They just threw him into a room with a hooker with his hands tied behind his back while wearing his pajamas.
Keito
· 3 months ago
Takashi's eyes in the last panel are amazing! And I think someone said this already, but I love Mamoru's smile. :)
Milknut
· 2 months ago
I'm a little afraid that they're going to be sexually assaulted simultaneously!
Anon
· 2 months ago
Takashi's proportions (back of the head & neck versus the side of his face) look kind of funny in the second-to-last panel. Last panel looks great though!
Chuck
· 2 months ago
You guys I don't think Elenore is going to a birthday party. "Your dad is dead" and then "just kidding! I wanted your attention!" is not something you say to someone you are trying to make happy.
charles81
· 2 months ago
But it does get her attention and she wasn't exactly helpful and endearing herself to him to begin with.
Still, I do like the idea that we've been worried that Takashi was getting kidnapped and thinking Elanor is possibly cheating on him to suddenly turn it around and have Takashi in a room with an Onsen Geisha while Elanor is suddenly the one who's kidnapped. Heck, a General's daughter would be one hell of a prize for ransom or blackmail.
But it makes plenty sense that it's an 18th birthday party as well considering the timing... Although I do wonder why Captain America there would be the one to drive her to the party rather than her father *shrug*
beckstar
· 2 months ago
Gah! The suspense is killing me!
Mariamus
· 2 months ago
No update today?
Dani
· 2 months ago
It'd be less of a surprise if it was her father. I take it her father disappears regularly, so it's actually a really good cover/distraction if there IS a surprise party waiting for her in that bar. I certainly hope it is.
TheWynne
· 2 months ago
Eep! Looking back at this, it looks like they're both going to get date raped. Or something. I mean, creepy army guy who tells you your dad's dead to get you to come with him, and then tries to take you into a creepy closed store? Not good.
Alise
· 2 months ago
It didn't even occur to me it might be a surprise party for Eleanor... I hope so. I'd totally love her dad then! Is there no update this week, or am i just checking to early?
BobbyJ
· 2 months ago
b... but.... but todays a monday!
Sel
· 2 months ago
no update...? D=!
b3thanie
· 2 months ago
:( update?
AshleeS
· 2 months ago
I'm surprised no one commented on how handsome he is in that last panel. What gorgeous eyes... >///>;
Neph
· 2 months ago
Haha, Ashlee! When I saw it, I thought the same thing. ^___^ Every time I see this page (checking for an update and all), those eyes always stand out to me. :D
hchano
· 2 months ago
Oh boo, no update... =( *le sad*
@AshleeS: LOL I am sure a lot of us were thinking it at least. I did, but I don't comment very often. :'D <3 Takashi...
@Bobby: Just out of curiousity, have you thought of what actors and actresses you'd like for your charas here =x? Since you want it to be a movie...I just figure maybe you had a few in mind while writing it. =)
Zekeplosion
· 2 months ago
Me thinks something is about to happen to both of them at once. I don't like that military man leading the woman into a closed bar....
Yan
· 2 months ago
Well played with this page, well played. Made my day :)
jaded
· 2 months ago
-dies-damn.. foiled again by the suspense
chrystellum
· 2 months ago
It's Tuesday and there's no update...:(
I actually got that creepy feeling that they're both going to get (involuntarily) laid at the same time and will find their only refuge in their link. Though maybe not, since then in their sleep it'd look to them as if they're being raped by a stranger of the same gender. 0.0
I'm not sure, but I can totally see that happening, just judging by the mood and flow of this story so far. The fact that it's both their 18th birthday and this event would be like the last crack down on their innocence only feeds my suspicion. This story has lots of drama already, but this would feel like overflowing the reader with it. Kind of uncomfortable, but that's the point isn't it?
galthea
· 2 months ago
well, i have the feeling that if Elanor will see Takashi in some kind of weird (:)) situation and perhaps vice versa (even if there is possibility, that she is in serious danger and he just has birthday party - even if he doesn't know yet), well - I sense misunderstandings...
BluePhoenix
· 2 months ago
The one thing I think a lot of people are missing is that the prostitute/geisha/whatever wouldn't force Takashi into anything. she's been paid, if he doesn't want to take part in her services, he doesn't have to. It's not like she'll go running to his friends to mock him.
Keeper
· 2 months ago
A geisha... or perhaps a prostitute?
Nice gift... for a guy that doesn't already have a mystic relation with another woman across the ocean. That's going to be really awkward for both of them.
Kilya
· 2 months ago
I wonder if shes going to have a stripper at her surprise bday party.
Sarah Ellerton Fanboy.
· 2 months ago
I <3 Sarah Ellerton.
Calypso
· 2 months ago
You know, it kinda cracks me up that everyone is all hung up on the idea that its going to be some sort of 'romantic interlude' ... And personally...I can't see a guy getting raped by a gal unless he actually wanted to..:/ But then it wouldn't be rape, you know...
Rose87
· 2 months ago
I just like to state for the record that the body can be stimulated when the mind is not willing! A victims physical response does not negate her OR him saying no!
Trella
· 2 months ago
Could someone link me to Bobby's twitter? I've been looking for a link and am apparently blind or stupid since I can't find it. Thank you!
uh oh
· 2 months ago
i hope she gets a male stripper to even it up, instead of getting THROWN INTO A DANGEROUS SITUATION
zombieweirdcrazyfangirl
· 2 months ago
Aaaaaargh! Where is my update! AAAAAAH! Love your work, but please, YOU ARE KILLING ME!
ThatOnePerson
· 2 months ago
I don't know why but I feel like that figure is some sort of fortune teller rather than a geisha or a prostitute..Obviously it sounds like a prostitute right off the bat o: but I'm wondering if perhaps it's worded like that to trick us?
ThatOnePerson
· 2 months ago
OH WAIT! Another idea..perhaps..okay you know when someone throws you a surprise party they turn off all the lights and whatnot? The bar is "closed" and yet he says it's not..hmm..O: it's not a dangerous situation and rather an awesome party?
Is it bad that I'm kinda sad..I don't hate her at all, it's not that, I don't want her to get hurt, but for some reason I find it interesting when there's a dangerous situatiom thrown in.
KTL
· 2 months ago
Here's a wild guess (no surprise if it isn't true):
Takashi and his gang must have _some_ female friends/acquaintances, correct? What if, more than just trying to get Takashi laid on the day he turns into a legal adult, Mamoru and the others teamed up with a female friend, had her dress up, and try to play a trick on Takashi? They might want him to think he's going to lose his virginity, when in fact the female friend would just tease him around a bit.
Now that that's down, I'll counter my own argument by saying that's not just more than unlikely, that's absurd. Why else would Bobby come up with all this research he's done on Geishas if she were not? Since the term "geisha" hasn't come up canonically, Bobby could just say "She's not a geisha." and this whole debate about prostitutes/whores would just disappear. But he countered the comments with his own research, effectively proving that she is a geisha (in whatever terms), and disproving my random theory.
So posting my theory was rather useless, but it's been on my mind for more than a week and I just wanted to get it out there as another idea for whom she may be, even if it is rather random.
MelMorning
· 2 months ago
Guys.
* Expand ⇗ * Registered * blogblog
Bobby Crosby 10/09/2009 01:14 PM Of course it was to mock him. They just threw him into a room with a hooker with his hands tied behind his back while wearing his pajamas.
I wish you'd read Bobby's comments. He said it was a hooker.
Dani
· 2 months ago
KTL, Bobby already answered the debate and said even though geisha are not technically prostitutes, some of them probably had to and did prostitute themselves. Not every geisha was popular/successful or had the means or a man to support her and her career, so they probably had to try and make money other ways as well. Which is all entirely plausible.
Catriana
· 2 months ago
If she's a real Geisha, they must have paid a LOT for her.
Geisha weren't exactly 'cheap', it cost money for their time and attention. While I won't argue that 'some' Geisha were prostitutes, more than likely they were either Geisha that were extremely unpopular anyway and shifted towards prostitution or so extremely low class it was ridiculous.
A majority of Geisha tried to acquire 'danna', who yes, they had sex with quite often when said 'danna' was around. MOST Geisha were 'paid women', they had 'sugar daddies', but that is not the same as prostitution. Furthermore, if a Geisha was giving it up for money just like that, it would have to be an exceptional amount. They were entertainers. They didn't go to school to be whores.
It's a common misconception because Westerners couldn't tell the difference between the paid prostitutes and the Geisha. They were all pretty Asian women in pretty clothes and lots of makeup.
You didn't go through all that schooling to become a high class dancer and entertainer and become little more than a prostitute without there being some sort of substantial reason. I understand the 'Japanese are human too' but they also have their pride. Not sure how it was in the 1900's but I'm almost positive that if you're hiring a Geisha specifically for sex, she ain't that great of a Geisha.
Argue all you want, but a 'true' Geisha, in the sense of what they are supposed to be, were entertainers who gave themselves up to their 'Danna', who paid for ALL of their expenses (kimono's, living expenses, hair, obi's, on TOP of the gifts they received). There's also the 'mizuage' but that is NOT the same as being a prostitute. Considering that I just got done with a Japanese history class (and my history teacher is a durned good one) and he made it pretty durned clear about this misconception, I would tend to believe him over you. I still love your comic, but to imply that a good chunk of 'true' Geisha were in fact, prostitutes is an insult to those women in the past who did years and years of schooling and worked hard to become high class entertainers.
If you want to call them anything, they were Mistresses for men if they acquired a danna. Implying that many of them were prostitutes? I don't agree with that sentiment. I also feel that if they were little more than prostitutes, they weren't considered Geisha by their community.
There's also the common misconception that Samurai were good and virtuous and outstanding, when in fact historically speaking they were nothing but common thugs who leeched off the land and through their own incompentence ended their reign by the end of the 1800's. Does that mean that there weren't some virtuous Samurai? Sure, but they weren't the majority, not at all.
KTL
· 2 months ago
@Dani I'm not disputing that geishas are prostitutes. Just posting a wild guess wondering if Takashi would actually recognize the woman. :)
Jess
· 2 months ago
I do think she's on her way to birthday party, probably organised by her Dad. But this asshole army boy may have entirely defeated the whole 'Happy Birthday' thing by nearly making her cry.
Also, doubt he'd be dragging her around in public if he intended to do her harm. I reckon someone else has ordered him around.
Guys can get assaulted, but the hooker's not going to do that. She gets paid either way: if he really asks, she'll probably just untie him and give him directions home.
Bobby Crosby
· 2 months ago
"I would tend to believe him over you. I still love your comic, but to imply that a good chunk of 'true' Geisha were in fact, prostitutes is an insult to those women in the past who did years and years of schooling and worked hard to become high class entertainers."
#1 -- If he said there was never a prostitute geisha, feel free to believe a crazy liar. #2 -- How is it an insult to say the truth, according to a million sources and pure common sense, that obviously some geisha were prostitutes? What's your definition of "a good chunk" and "many"? All that matters to me in this discussion is that there was at least ONE, but even if there were ZERO (which is obviously impossible and would contradict piles of evidence), that would still not be a problem, as I said before. There was never even an intention to use the word "geisha" in the story anyway.
eyelid
· 2 months ago
what's so terribly wrong with being a prostitute anyway? And why would being a mistress be different, or superior?
Katie
· 2 months ago
Oh my god, people. Really? WHO CARES ANYMORE? Regardless of whether she's a geisha or a hooker or a geisha hooker or a girl in a kimono with her hair in a bun (since that's all we can tell from her silhouette), does it really matter? No, not especially. It's a comic! It's meant for entertainment. Between the fantastic storytelling and the gorgeous art, I tend to get swept up in the comic, instead of nitpicking every tiny detail. If you're flipping out over details like this, I feel you're going into this comic with the wrong approach. Just wait for the next update and stop having comment wars.
Ellie
· 2 months ago
I'm only seeing the end of the argument, but he really never said the word geisha, everyone's making presumptions that she is a geisha. She could just be a good old fashioned prostitute. A woman in Japan who entertains men, whether with sex or not, does not HAVE to be a geisha. Could just be a prostitute. I'm just saying.
Kalietha
· 2 months ago
Wow. I feel sorry for the wonderful makers of this comic. Here they put so much work into a great story and awesome art, and the readers erupt into whole huge arguments about details on a regular basis.
The ability to write comments is a privilege, people, and one that not all comic artists are kind enough to grant. So please, treat as such.
Sarah, Bobby, this is a wonderful comic and I truly hope that you won't give up on it just because the most vocal of your readers seem to be social idiots.
WolfofSilver
· 2 months ago
I agree with Kalietha. So much beautiful work, and all you guys can do is argue about a word that hasn't even been used in the comic. For shame. Sit back and watch to see what happens, because that's what I'm doing. :) Good show on the people who remarked on the comic itself.
Yes, Sarah, Bobby, it is a beautifully written & drawn comic. Keep it up, we beg you! I look forward to your comic every time I hop on my computer. :)
MiriamE
· 2 months ago
I'm a little late in commenting, but oh well! I was really worried about Takashi there for while, but I think now I'm more concerned for Elanor. Great page, can't wait for the next one!
All Comments
That Mamoru, what a trickster.
For the rest of the Geisha debate, lookup Onsen Geisha:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onsen_geisha
Personally I think it'll be a bit of a misunderstanding between them but the major thing to break them apart will probably be the mere act if misunderstanding (i.e. the suggestion that one doesn't trust the other or something).
Oh and it's a great page *lol*. GEISHA! Happy Birthday indeed ;)
Hmmm. His hands are still tied and he's shut in there with her. Doesn't look like Elanor is going to sleep anytime soon but I wouldn't put it past her to steal a moment in the ladies just to check up on Takashi or ask him what he thinks of something. Not sure if he's seen enough to convince him that she's cheating on him or anything silly but who knows, maybe he'll steal another nap in the Geisha's presence himself to find out whats going on. If Elanor does go to sleep I guess she'd feel the ropes still around his hands unless they're removed.
Just gotta add that I LOVE the thought in the 2nd panel of tucking Captain America's tie into his shirt. Not many people would have thought of that (i.e. tucked in so it wasn't flapping around as they drove).
Click below for the archive of DREAMLESS ACT1 Pages 01-23 on Sarah's Seraph-Inn Forum:
http://forum.seraph-inn.com/index.php?showtopic...
Click below for the archive of DREAMLESS ACT2 Pages 24-** on Sarah's Seraph-Inn Forum:
http://forum.seraph-inn.com/index.php?showtopic...
Click below for the FAQ of DREAMLESS on Sarah's Seraph-Inn Forum:
http://forum.seraph-inn.com/index.php?showtopic...
Prostitutes are the girls who are sold into slavery who are uglier than the geishas pretty much. They wear their belts (obi) tied in the front so it's easier to take off rather than reaching in the back and messing with all the knots.
Prostitutes are cheaper, obviously. Geishas are more for entertainment (serving sake, talking, serving more sake, drinking games, playing music and performing dances, yaddah yaddah).
Prostitutes do their job and you leave.
It looked like Elanor was relatively safe, but Takashi was in serious danger. It turns out Tahaski has just been pranked.
... but Elanor? Is she safe? First this guy lies to her to get her attention, and then he takes her to a bar that turns out to be closed. She doesn't know him. Apparently the military wants some information from her about her father. If I were in her shoes, I would be very nervous.
But hey, maybe this will just be a cute soap-opera sequence of sexual hi-jinks and innocent misunderstandings.
First I go to Sarah's other comic, freak out over the drop ending, now this! T_T
So much for sleeping tonight, or indeed, this week.
Beautiful tie detail btw. Just love it.
Awesome page, as always!
Some of them obviously were. The myth that all of them were prostitutes is just as dumb as the myth that all of them weren't.
They bought him a night with a lady.
Oh. Snap.
"There remains some confusion, even within Japan, about the nature of the geisha profession."
All up it appears that a "true" Geisha is thought of as a girl of entertainment only, who does not engage in paid sex with clients. However this is the idealised view of them and it appears that although there were many fake Geishas who engaged in regular prostitution under the name of Geisha, many "true" Geisha were also pressured into it along with their normal services.
"Geisha have been confused with the Edo period's high-class courtesans known as oiran, from whom they evolved. Like geisha, oiran wore elaborate hairstyles and white makeup, but oiran knotted their obi in the front."
It'll be interesting to see how she wears the Obi as it could be a good indication as to exactly what this particular woman is (or at least, what she portrays herself as). Then again, this is long after the Edo period. "The last recorded oiran was in 1761"
They did Drive for some distance so she's probably an Onsen Geisha who are described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onsen_geisha
I am not relieved that his kidnappers didn't have more malicious intent. My romantic inclinations are not happy.
Keep it up, Dreamless has had me hooked from the first posting!
Wow, I can speak japanese now^^
And by the by, which birthday is this? 18?
And what's goin' on with Elanor and that soldier guy?
Can't wait for the next update!
Geisha were high class entertainers; they acted like hostesses at parties and escorts for dates and whatnot.
They didn't book him a geisha, they booked him a whore.
I'm enjoying this series though I didn't think I would as much. Thanks!
Not sure if that wink means you're making a strange joke or what, but if you're serious, you're the one who didn't do your homework.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onsen_geisha
And that link was posted just two comments before yours by someone else as well. And obviously some "true" geisha were prostitutes as well. Just because someone's not supposed to do something, that doesn't mean they never do it. Are priests supposed to molest children? It would be a pretty boring story if it only featured the most normal people in the world. People hear certain things and they take them too far in their minds and they want to feel superior to others, so they call people out on errors that aren't errors. Many of you have heard that it was a myth that geisha were prostitutes and you somehow get that in your head that that means 100% of them weren't. Also, even if 100% of them weren't (obviously nowhere near the case), that STILL wouldn't stop it from being a valid thing to put in the story. It's a fictional story about people who see each other's lives in real time as they sleep. Has that ever happened before? Has a human ever done that before? And don't ignore the obvious fact that lots of geisha were prostitutes and instead make an argument about how you should only have one big crazy thing (the "dreamless" aspect) in a story that people need to suspend disbelief for and how everything else should be as real as possible to help the believability of the one crazy thing. I know that, and I also know that it's perfectly real to have a prostitute geisha.
I believe the correct term might be "maiko" or "geiko", I'm not sure.
A Maiko is just an apprentice Geisha (although not all Geisha go through that apprenticeship stage).
You're right. "Memoirs of a Geisha" is a fictional story and shouldn't really be used as a real reference to the profession... Much like Dremless is a work of fiction ;)
But seriously it's almost certain that this is an Onsen Geisha. The description of them in the pre-WWII period fits perfectly with whats happening in Dreamless. Particularly the part where they've driven out of town quite a way to take Takashi to her.
At any rate, perhaps we should save the geisha argument for when someone in the story actually says the word "Geisha." :P Until then, she's just a woman that his friends have paid to "entertain" Takashi for the evening--in what ways remains to be seen.
Me, I'm more worried about Eleanor; hope it's a birthday bash and not something sinister...
I have a feeling there's gonna be a dent in Takashi's and Eleanor's relationship. Maybe that's in the end what forces Eleanor to sleep most of the day, to block Takashi out? o:
Well, probably not.
But I have a feeling this isn't going to go down well.
Last panel looks great though!
Still, I do like the idea that we've been worried that Takashi was getting kidnapped and thinking Elanor is possibly cheating on him to suddenly turn it around and have Takashi in a room with an Onsen Geisha while Elanor is suddenly the one who's kidnapped. Heck, a General's daughter would be one hell of a prize for ransom or blackmail.
But it makes plenty sense that it's an 18th birthday party as well considering the timing... Although I do wonder why Captain America there would be the one to drive her to the party rather than her father *shrug*
Is there no update this week, or am i just checking to early?
@AshleeS: LOL I am sure a lot of us were thinking it at least. I did, but I don't comment very often. :'D <3 Takashi...
@Bobby: Just out of curiousity, have you thought of what actors and actresses you'd like for your charas here =x? Since you want it to be a movie...I just figure maybe you had a few in mind while writing it. =)
I don't like that military man leading the woman into a closed bar....
I actually got that creepy feeling that they're both going to get (involuntarily) laid at the same time and will find their only refuge in their link. Though maybe not, since then in their sleep it'd look to them as if they're being raped by a stranger of the same gender. 0.0
I'm not sure, but I can totally see that happening, just judging by the mood and flow of this story so far. The fact that it's both their 18th birthday and this event would be like the last crack down on their innocence only feeds my suspicion. This story has lots of drama already, but this would feel like overflowing the reader with it. Kind of uncomfortable, but that's the point isn't it?
Nice gift... for a guy that doesn't already have a mystic relation with another woman across the ocean. That's going to be really awkward for both of them.
Love your work, but please, YOU ARE KILLING ME!
Is it bad that I'm kinda sad..I don't hate her at all, it's not that, I don't want her to get hurt, but for some reason I find it interesting when there's a dangerous situatiom thrown in.
Takashi and his gang must have _some_ female friends/acquaintances, correct? What if, more than just trying to get Takashi laid on the day he turns into a legal adult, Mamoru and the others teamed up with a female friend, had her dress up, and try to play a trick on Takashi? They might want him to think he's going to lose his virginity, when in fact the female friend would just tease him around a bit.
Now that that's down, I'll counter my own argument by saying that's not just more than unlikely, that's absurd. Why else would Bobby come up with all this research he's done on Geishas if she were not? Since the term "geisha" hasn't come up canonically, Bobby could just say "She's not a geisha." and this whole debate about prostitutes/whores would just disappear. But he countered the comments with his own research, effectively proving that she is a geisha (in whatever terms), and disproving my random theory.
So posting my theory was rather useless, but it's been on my mind for more than a week and I just wanted to get it out there as another idea for whom she may be, even if it is rather random.
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Bobby Crosby 10/09/2009 01:14 PM
Of course it was to mock him. They just threw him into a room with a hooker with his hands tied behind his back while wearing his pajamas.
I wish you'd read Bobby's comments.
He said it was a hooker.
Geisha weren't exactly 'cheap', it cost money for their time and attention. While I won't argue that 'some' Geisha were prostitutes, more than likely they were either Geisha that were extremely unpopular anyway and shifted towards prostitution or so extremely low class it was ridiculous.
A majority of Geisha tried to acquire 'danna', who yes, they had sex with quite often when said 'danna' was around. MOST Geisha were 'paid women', they had 'sugar daddies', but that is not the same as prostitution. Furthermore, if a Geisha was giving it up for money just like that, it would have to be an exceptional amount. They were entertainers. They didn't go to school to be whores.
It's a common misconception because Westerners couldn't tell the difference between the paid prostitutes and the Geisha. They were all pretty Asian women in pretty clothes and lots of makeup.
You didn't go through all that schooling to become a high class dancer and entertainer and become little more than a prostitute without there being some sort of substantial reason. I understand the 'Japanese are human too' but they also have their pride. Not sure how it was in the 1900's but I'm almost positive that if you're hiring a Geisha specifically for sex, she ain't that great of a Geisha.
Argue all you want, but a 'true' Geisha, in the sense of what they are supposed to be, were entertainers who gave themselves up to their 'Danna', who paid for ALL of their expenses (kimono's, living expenses, hair, obi's, on TOP of the gifts they received). There's also the 'mizuage' but that is NOT the same as being a prostitute. Considering that I just got done with a Japanese history class (and my history teacher is a durned good one) and he made it pretty durned clear about this misconception, I would tend to believe him over you. I still love your comic, but to imply that a good chunk of 'true' Geisha were in fact, prostitutes is an insult to those women in the past who did years and years of schooling and worked hard to become high class entertainers.
If you want to call them anything, they were Mistresses for men if they acquired a danna. Implying that many of them were prostitutes? I don't agree with that sentiment. I also feel that if they were little more than prostitutes, they weren't considered Geisha by their community.
There's also the common misconception that Samurai were good and virtuous and outstanding, when in fact historically speaking they were nothing but common thugs who leeched off the land and through their own incompentence ended their reign by the end of the 1800's. Does that mean that there weren't some virtuous Samurai? Sure, but they weren't the majority, not at all.
Also, doubt he'd be dragging her around in public if he intended to do her harm. I reckon someone else has ordered him around.
Guys can get assaulted, but the hooker's not going to do that. She gets paid either way: if he really asks, she'll probably just untie him and give him directions home.
#1 -- If he said there was never a prostitute geisha, feel free to believe a crazy liar. #2 -- How is it an insult to say the truth, according to a million sources and pure common sense, that obviously some geisha were prostitutes? What's your definition of "a good chunk" and "many"? All that matters to me in this discussion is that there was at least ONE, but even if there were ZERO (which is obviously impossible and would contradict piles of evidence), that would still not be a problem, as I said before. There was never even an intention to use the word "geisha" in the story anyway.
WHO CARES ANYMORE?
Regardless of whether she's a geisha or a hooker or a geisha hooker or a girl in a kimono with her hair in a bun (since that's all we can tell from her silhouette), does it really matter?
No, not especially.
It's a comic! It's meant for entertainment. Between the fantastic storytelling and the gorgeous art, I tend to get swept up in the comic, instead of nitpicking every tiny detail.
If you're flipping out over details like this, I feel you're going into this comic with the wrong approach.
Just wait for the next update and stop having comment wars.
The ability to write comments is a privilege, people, and one that not all comic artists are kind enough to grant. So please, treat as such.
Sarah, Bobby, this is a wonderful comic and I truly hope that you won't give up on it just because the most vocal of your readers seem to be social idiots.
Yes, Sarah, Bobby, it is a beautifully written & drawn comic. Keep it up, we beg you! I look forward to your comic every time I hop on my computer. :)
http://dreamless.keenspot.com/comic.rss
Love the comic you and Sarah have produced!